- Do you know why we wanna talk to you Jon?
- I don't know.
I think so.
- Why do you think we wanna talk to you?
- About that boy.
- Yes?
- Because someone took him and killed him.
- Yes.
- It wasn't me, I never went to Bootle Strand.
- Well we're not gonna talk about that just now.
First we're gonna talk about something else.
Do you know what truth is Jon?
- Yeah.
- [Man] Jon, you tell us what you think truth is.
- That you've done something and it's true.
- And what if you were telling lies?
- I don't know.
- Is telling lies wrong?
- Yeah.
- So if I said that your face is green
and your hair is pink, would that be a lie? [480p & 720p Movies Download | Mkvking.com]
- Yeah.
- Okay, so you know what a lie is.
- Robert, you've seen the pictures on the TV [480p & 720p Movies Download | Mkvking.com]
showing James and the two boys who took him haven't you?
- Yeah, it isn't me cause I didn't take him.
- Well there's a boy in the video who has a jacket
just like yours. [480p & 720p Movies Download | Mkvking.com]
- There's lots of jackets the same as mine.
- But there's also a boy with a jacket like Jon's
walking next to James.
- Well he's not walking with me.
- But you were there weren't you?
- Yeah, I was there, I saw him but I didn't take him.
- What was he doing?
- He was just with his mum.
He had a blue coat.
- I think Jon you should know that Robert
is at Walton Lane police station
and he's told a different story of what happened on Friday.
- Robert probably told lies.
- What do you think Robert lied about?
- I don't know.
Well you think I killed a kid.
- No, they don't think that Jon.
There's no need to get upset.
- No one's saying that Jon.
- They just want to know where you've been.
If you've been robbing all day, you should tell them.
- I never went to the Bootle Strand.
- Now is that the truth, or a lie?
- It's truth.
- Jon told me earlier
that Robert is going to tell all kinds of lies.
- Robbie took me to places I didn't know.
- He's frightened because he doesn't know
all the places, and Robert does.
Was it the Bootle strand?
- No.
- You see Robert says that he was with you,
and that were you indeed in Bootle New Strand together.
- He wasn't.
- Robert says you were.
- Yeah, we was,
but we never saw any kids there,
we never robbed any kids.
- So you were in Bootle New Strand?
- Was you in Bootle Strand?
- Yeah, but we never got a kid Mum,
we never, we haven't got a kid.
- Mrs. Venables, would you?
I must ask you not to get angry with him.
- We never got a kid mum, we never,
we always do that together,
but we never done a kid Mum,
mum we never done a kid, we didn't,
we never Mum.
- I think you saw more of James,
because you wouldn't remember
a blue coat from a brief glance.
- I never took him.
- Well we believe
that you left with baby James and with Jon.
- Says who?
- We say.
- No, I never left with him.
- Well tell me what happened then.
- I never touched him.
I never touched him.
- That's why you noticed his anorak,
because Jon had hold of his hand, isn't that right?
- Yeah, Jon grabbed hold of the baby's hand
and just walked around with him for a bit,
but then he let him go loose.
- [Man] Where did Jon let him go?
- By the church.
I told Jon to take him back.
- Well I have a statement from a woman,
who says that she saw two boys
with a baby on the reservoir.
Now I think that's you and
Jon, with James.
What's happened him?
We just found him at the bottom of the hill.
Did he have a fall?
That's a bad bruise.
He was like that when we found him.
You best take him to Walton Lane Police Station.
Do you know where it is?
Yeah, we'll bring him now.
- You knew that I went to Bootle Strand.
- I would have strangled ye, yeah.
- And one of you thought I killed a kid, I never.
- I'd never think that.
- Because I would have told,
because I thought you'd think I'd done it.
- If I would have known all this now, Jon,
I would have had you down the police station right away,
instead of them banging on our front door
making a show of me in the street.
- I thought you'd think I killed him.
We just found him - he was lost at the Strand.
We're bringing him to the police station now.
If you found him by the Strand why didn't you
bring him to the police station by the Strand?
We were bringing him to Walton Lane Police Station.
You've come an awfully long way from the Strand
to Walton Lane Police Station.
Well that's where the man directed us.
Where do you live?
Eh...
The police station is on the way home.
Are you alright?
We'll bring him to the police station.
Would you mind looking after my little
girl while I take him to the police station?
Oh, my dog doesn't like children.
He's afraid of them.
Sorry.
Okay, boys. Do you know which way you're going?
Yeah. We know.
Are you sure you know the way?
I go that way, Missus.
- So, you did leave with James then?
- Yeah, we went to the Strand
and then we picked little James up.
Well, he, Jon did.
- Right.
- And we took him down and left him on the Howe.
- On the Howe?
- By the railway.
- Why did you leave James there?
- Because if we took him to the police station
then we'd have to go inside.
He wasn't crying anymore, he was just looking round.
He'd only had a graze.
- Now would you have left baby Ben,
your brother there, if he was two?
- No, because he's my brother.
- And would you have left a similar boy?
- He's not though, he's not any relation to us.
Mum, is Jon getting asked this?
- Robert says that you took James by the hand,
and led him out of the Strand shops.
- He never, we never.
- No, not we, Robert is saying
that you took him by the hand.
- We never.
- Not Robert, you did it.
- I never.
- Well why would Robert say that then?
- He's a liar!
I never took him by the hand,
I never even touched the baby!
- Jon, are you all right to carry on?
- Yeah.
- Jon, look at me.
If you want to stop at any time, you just say so.
- You need to tell the truth Jon,
because you keep telling us stories.
- I never got the boy.
- If you never got the boy, tell us what happened.
Was it Robert?
You're nodding your head.
- Yeah, he left him in the road.
- Right, let's go back to the Strand then.
- I never took a boy Mum, I never.
- Okay.
- Come here son, all right, come on.
Settle yourself down.
- I can't, I never touched him.
- Sit down, go to your mum.
- You're going to get me crying now, look.
- I never Mum.
- I know you wouldn't do anything to a little one.
- All right, now,
why don't you tell us what happened Jon.
- I never dropped him on his own.
- Tell me the truth now Jon, please.
- I never killed him Mum,
but I took him and left the canal Mum, that's all.
- You left him at the canal?
By the Strand?
- Yeah.
- Where did you find the boy in the Strand?
- I dunno, he was just walking around on his own.
I never killed him Mum, I never killed him Mum,
I wouldn't hurt a baby.
- I know you wouldn't hurt a baby.
- I wanna go home.
I'm only saying what yous wanna know.
you're gonna put me in jail.
I never.
- You see Robert, if James was bleeding,
and we find his blood on your clothes or Jon's,
then we'd know that you were there
when he was bleeding.
- But how would you know it was baby James's blood?
- We'd know because we have his body.
- Where?
- Well it doesn't matter where.
- He's probably been to the hospital first.
- Why?
- To take blood from his arm, like they did with you.
- They can try to get him alive again?
- No.
They can't do that.
- I was told he got chopped in half.
Well he couldn't come alive again, could he?
If he'd been chopped in half.
The blood might be mine
if I was bleeding from a cut.
I never murdered him.
Yous are trying to say that I murdered him.
Why aren't yous doing this to Jon?
Ask Jon, I never touched him.
- Jon, your Dad and I want to say something to you,
and it's important, right?
- Okay.
- We want you to know that
we love you, very very much.
- More than anything.
- And nothing's going to change that, okay?
- Okay.
- What I'm trying to say Jon, is that
no matter what happens.
No matter what you've done,
even if it's really, really bad,
we always love you, you know that, don't you?
- Yeah.
- We always love you, Jon,
but you've got to tell the truth.
- Mum.
Mum I wanted to tell you.
I did kill him.
What about his mum?
Will you tell her I'm sorry?
- [Man] Where did you find James?
- At the butcher's.
- And who's idea was it to take him?
- Mine.
Then it was Robert's idea to kill him.
- Why did you wanna take him?
- I just said to Robert,
"Is that boy lost or something?"
We were looking around for his mum for a bit,
but then we got fed up,
and we went outside to the canal.
Then we picked him up, and threw him on the floor.
And that's when he got the bump on his head.
- Was he crying then?
- Yeah.
- But then we came back,
and he was already walking up to us.
I'm sick of having my little brother.
I have him at school all the time.
I'm going to tell my mum I aint going to mind him no more.
Come on.
We got to the railway bridge.
And Robert opened the paint tin.
And then he threw it in James's face.
I can't tell you anything else.
- Why?
- Because that's the worst bit.
- Okay, right.
I know that's the worst bit,
but you know what you did,
and if you try hard you'll be able to tell us.
Just have a little rest,
think about it and just tell us what happened.
- We took him on the railway,
and started throwing bricks at him.
- Who did?
- Robbie.
He just said, he said "stand there",
and we’ll get you a plaster or something.
Then he lifted this brick up, and threw it in his face.
- You've denied a lot of things Robert, h
and then admitted them.
We were right about those things,
and we're right about this as well.
- Well, I didn't kill them.
- If you just tell them the truth
this'll all be over in a few minutes.
- Jon threw a brick in his face.
- Why?
- I don't know.
- Right.
We’re getting there, aren’t we?
We’re getting to the truth now.
- Yeah well, I'm gonna end up getting all the blame,
because I got blood on me.
- What happened after Jon threw the brick?
- The brick hit him in his face
and he fell over on the floor.
- Why the hell didn’t you just leave?
- I did, after that I ran.
I left Jon on his own.
- What was the baby doing?
- He was just on the floor, crying.
- Was he awake or asleep?
- What you mean?
- Was he asleep or...
- He was awake.
- Then Robbie said,
"Pick up a brick, and throw it",
but I just...
I threw it on the floor.
I missed on purpose
because I didn't wanna hurt him
But then Robbie picked up the same brick
and he threw it again.
- I don't think that you've told us the full truth.
- That's all I seen.
- Well I think you know about things that happened
and it doesn't explain a lot of things.
- And you were there like, and seen me?
- No.
But we can tell what happened from his injuries.
- Why would I take flowers over to the baby
if I killed him?
- I know the truth.
I believe I know the truth.
- So do I, I was there.
- That's right.
- You weren't.
- Then Robbie threw about ten bricks,
I only threw six or five,
but I missed James,
and hit him in the arm,
because I never meant to hit him in the arm,
I wanted to throw the brick to the side of him.
- Was he bleeding?
- All over.
- It's all our family.
It's always our family that gets the blame.
- Your family might have got blame in the past,
but on this occasion we're right, aren't we?
- No, because I never touched him.
- Tell us what happened then.
- Jon threw another brick.
- Where did that hit him?
- On there.
- What happened then?
- Then he hit him again
with a big metal thing that had holes in it.
- Where did he hit him with that?
- In the head.
He just went like that and hit him.
- He hit him with the bar,
and I think he was knocked out.
Then we threw a few bricks at him,
and we ran away.
- Why did you run away?
- I dunno,
I just said to Robert,
"Don't you think we done enough now?"
- Were you angry with James?
- No.
I didn't even wanna hurt him.
I didn't wanna hurt him or nothing,
because I didn't wanna hurt him with strong things,
only like light things.
- So you only wanted to hurt him a little bit?
- Answer the question.
- Why did you want to hurt him a little bit?
- I didn't wanna hurt him really.
Robert probably...
Robbie's probably done it for fun or something,
because he was laughing his head off.
- Why did you do all this?
Why did Jon do all this?
- I don't know.
That's what I don't know.
- I don't believe, Robert,
that you just stood idly by
while Jon did all those things.
- Well I was trying to pull Jon back.
- Jon has admitted to throwing stones,
things like that,
but he's also blaming you on a lot of things.
- I don't think Jon did everything.
- Yeah, well, I never.
- I think you hit him.
- Well that's what you think.
- There's only one person here
that knows the whole truth.
- I know, and I've just said it all.
I know I never hit him
so I've got nothing to bother about.
- I can't.
I can't sit through any more of this.
- [Man] Did either of you take James's clothes off?
- [Jon] Robbie pulled his pants off, and his undies,
and I pulled his shoes off.
- [Man] Why?
- I don't know why,
it was last week, I keep forgetting.
I don't really know now Dad,
he's asking me too hard questions.
- Why would I wanna kill a baby
when I've got a baby of me own?
If I wanted to kill a baby I'd kill...
I'd kill me own wouldn't I?
- Well you said your own baby's family,
didn't you?
- What do you mean?
- That's what you said.
- I know he's me family, I'm not stupid.
I don't even know what you're going on about?
- When James's body was found,
his bottom clothing had been removed.
Can you tell us why that is?
- No.
- Did you start playing with him?
- With who?
- [Man] With James's bottom?
- No.
- Are you sure now?
- Yeah.
I'm not a pervert, you know.
- Jon says it was you
who pulled off his pants, and his underpants.
- So in other words,
you're taking what Jon says
and just ignoring me?
So I'll ignore you.
- There was an injury to James's mouth.
Do you know anything about that?
- No.
I'm not answering any more.
- I think there's still some things
you haven't told us Jon.
The batteries.
Why were the batteries there?
- I dunno.
- I think you do know Jon.
- I never put them there,
Robbie just threw them.
- It was a little bit more than throwing them.
- I dunno.
I don't know Dad.
- Jon, is it horrible
what happened to the batteries?
- I don't know anything
about what Robert did with the batteries.
- Why are you crying then?
- Because you'll blame it on me,
that I had them.
I don't know about the batteries,
I don't know, I don't know.
- Hey, hey Jon, don't punch your Dad.
- Me Dad doesn't know, and I don't.
You're saying I do, and I don't.
I don't know anything about it.
- Calm down Jon.
Can you tell us what happened to James's mouth?
- I don’t know, I never saw nothing.
- Jon, you've got to admit to yourself,
you saw everything that happened there,
because you were a part of it.
- No I never!
- So you can't say you didn't see.
- I don't know, I don't.
Make it stop, make it stop Dad.
Please make it stop, make it stop,
make it stop, make it stop, make it stop!
Look, that's us.
There's a lot of those around.
You don't need them now, do you?
How come my picture is in black and white?
And Robert's isn't?
I don't know, Jon.
- Was that a train going past?
- Yeah.
- I know all them trains.